(01:55): Um, you asked something that has sparked joy for me recently. Ooh, that is a good question. Well, we were just talking about the unexpected gift of a warm weekend in October. Um, and, uh, so I spent the weekend pretty much the whole weekend at the beach and, um, just to be able to have that, that extra, uh, little gift of sunshine is so welcome. And there were dolphins this weekend in Wales, which is always just a visitation from, you know, the wild is always just such a, a profound source of joy for me. So that was, um, really, really, um, has been sort of feeding me coming into this week.  

Sue Wadden (02:36): That's amazing. It's late, you know, it's October when we're recording this. So, do they, do they, do the whales come in, on the East Coast in, in the fall?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (02:45): Yeah, they do. I mean, I don't actually know what, when they are most active, um, but it's, it's a wonderful thing to be at the beach and suddenly you hear someone cry out and then everyone's attention orients toward the water and everyone's just looking and trying to figure out where exactly they are. And sometimes you'll get these pods of dolphins, tons of dolphins roll through or whales that are just doing these acrobatic breeches. So it is, it's a really, you know, one of the reasons we moved out of the city was to have more access to nature in the wild.  (03:20): And I'm sure we'll talk about that-  

Sue Wadden (03:21): Yeah-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (03:22): ... and how important-  

Sue Wadden (03:22): ... definitely.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (03:22): ... nature is for joy and well-being. Um, but there is just something about the unpredictability of nature, um, that is just a profound source of joy.  

Sue Wadden (03:33): 100%. We will definitely talk about that. Um, but I guess let's, let's start with your beginning. So, you talk about your design background because your pedigree is excellent. Um, and then how did you start on this journey to, uh, this, this discussion on joy and this research really? So, start, let's start there.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (03:50): Sure. So, I was at Pratt Institute, I was doing a graduate degree in industrial design and I was changing careers. So, I had started out, um, my undergraduate degree was English and creative writing, and then I went and spent some time, I was trying to even myself out. So, I spent some time in quantitative market research-  

Sue Wadden (04:09): Mm-hmm. Ooh. (laughs)  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (04:09): ... and I know. So I went, I, because I thought, "Well, I don't really know anything about, you know, all I have is just writing." I, I wrote a novel for my undergraduate thesis, so it was never published and I thought, "Okay, well, now I need to learn something about numbers." So, I went out and I spent two years doing quantitative market research and then I moved into branding and I was, um, I was in that space and I really became intrigued by design. I was working with a lot of designers and I was really curious about design.  (04:33): And I spent some time trying to understand all the different design disciplines. Well, there's architecture, you build buildings, there's fashion, you, you make clothes. Um, I was just thinking, and, and what really spoke to me was this idea of industrial design or product design, designing the tangible things we live with every day. So, I went to Pratt for a master's in industrial design, which is a unique program where you can career change. So, I had to learn how to draw. I had to learn color. I had to learn all these things for the first time.  (04:58): And at the end of my first year-end review, I had all these things I had made and, you know, many of them were not up to my aesthetic standards, but, you know, I laid them out and I was waiting for the, the critique of my professors. And I had this panel of professors in front of me looking at my work and its very stressful, right? Because they're, they're, you're just standing there and everyone is standing there looking at you and your work and you feel kind of feel like you're under a microscope.  (05:27): And then one of the professors said, "Your work gives me a feeling of joy." And I was, I mean, relieved that it wasn't like we hate everything (laughs), right?  

Sue Wadden (05:34): Right, 100%.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (05:36): But at the same time, I was confused because it was definitely not what I was going for. I had this idea that I wanted to specialize in sustainable design and I was really focused on ergonomics and materials and the science behind the materials. And that's what I was thinking about, I really wasn't thinking about joy at all. And so, I said, "Well, how does that work, right? How do material things," like I think I had designed a, you know, this cup that wobbled and these stools that were made of this kind of different layers of foam.  (06:09): They kind of look like, like a layer cake. And, um, so how, how does that work? How do things create joy? How do these tangible things create this very intangible feeling of joy? Because we're always taught that joy isn't something that you can see or touch. It's not something that comes from material objects.  

Sue Wadden (06:29): It's not quantitative, right? It's-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (06:30): It's not quantitative-  

Sue Wadden (06:32): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (06:33): ... it's not, it's this very ineffable thing. How does that relate, um, how do these two things relate? And the professors did a lot of hand waving (laughing) and, um, a lot of, you know, just chalking it up to the feeling or the intuition. And, and that really frustrated me because I wanted to know how it worked. And so, that was the beginning. Um, I went from there to the library to see if there were any books on designing joy. And they were, you know, any books that were there on designing for motion were really the same as what my professors were saying. They were very, um, it was all very intuitive and, um, reflective, but there was no science.  

Sue Wadden (07:17): There was no science. It was a-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (07:18): There was no science.  

Sue Wadden (07:19): ... before your work, there was just a lot of discussion about color psychology-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (07:23): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (07:23): ... and you could make inferences. You could, you know, designers do that often, right? We make that leap into from the artistic to sort of what we understand and practice, but you were the first one to really kind of start to put this down, which was amazing. Okay, keep going. Keep, keep, keep going.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (07:39): So, so yeah. So, then I, so then I thought, "Okay, well, if things could create joy, then I should probably try to understand what kinds of things create joy." So, I started just asking people, um, and I became that person who just like, you know, talks to everyone in an airport or on a bus or, you know, anywhere. I even went out with a clipboard to the middle of Rockefeller Center and just sort of stopped people and started asking them about like, what brings them joy, which of course, when you're standing next to all of the people trying to sell at the time, like magazine subscriptions and all, all kinds of things.  (08:09): Um, I had to sort of chase people sometimes and, and, you know, try to get them to, um, realize that I really wasn't selling anything I just wanted to know what brought them joy. Um, but as I did that, I just started to build a library of things that seemed to create joy all around the world. Um, and I noticed that, you know, there are certain things that, you know, would come up again and again. And so, I started taking pictures of these things and putting them up on my studio wall because I was a designer.  (08:38): I, I was trying to understand visually, um, or sensorially what is it about these things. And I started to notice that there were kind of groupings. So, things that were bright and colorful was one group of things that, you know, ed, things that create joy are often bright and colorful. Um, and you see this in celebrations all around the world, right? Um, the, you imagine a celebration in like gray, it just seems very weird. (laughs) Um, so when we are feeling joy, we want bright color. Um, another is, uh, things that float and fly.  (09:15): So, we see a lot of things like, uh, kites and bubbles and balloons and things that are, you know, move up. Um, so the the upward movement, uh, tends to be very joyful. And that, of course, reflects like our faces too, right? Our, our corners of our mouth go up when we're, when we're feeling joyful and they go down when we're sad. So, um, so we have that orientation, um, and then, uh, a sense of abundance and multiplicity. So, things like confetti or rainbows or polka dots. Um, so this, you know, kid in a candy store feeling I call it.  (09:51): Like that sense of, you know, or even just walking into Whole Foods and seeing all the shelves piled high, there's that sense of abundance that's very joyful. So altogether, there were 10 of these different groupings, these collections of elements, um, and I started to call them aesthetics of joy, um, the sensations of joy because that word aesthetics, um, I love it, you know, it, it often sounds very lofty, but the root of it comes from the Greek word aisthanomai, which means I feel, I sense, I perceive. And so, I love that because it, what I, what was, what I was discovering was that there are certain sensations that seem to cause joy or seem to trigger joy the world over.  (10:34): And so, if that's the case, these are our aesthetics of joy. So, there are 10 universal aesthetics or groups of elements that stimulate joy all over the world. And when we use those elements in our surroundings, we can create more joy, uh, for ourselves as well.  

Sue Wadden (10:53): So, tell me about those. Um, I have them listed, but I, I wanna hear from you. Um-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (10:57): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (10:57): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (10:58): Uh, do you want me to run through all of-  

Sue Wadden (10:59): Yeah. We, I think we talked about it.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (10:59): Okay.  

Sue Wadden (11:01): Abundance, we covered that-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (11:03): Yeah. Energy, which is color and light, bright color and light.  

Sue Wadden (11:06): Yup.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (11:06): Um, so energy abundance, um, freedom, which is the joy we find in wild nature and open space.  

Sue Wadden (11:13): Oh, yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (11:14): Harmony, the joy of symmetry and repetition and repeating patterns, rhythm, balance, um, all of that goes into, uh, the aesthetic of harmony. Play, play is the aesthetic of, uh, round shapes. So, we see round shapes all throughout childhood because they're the safest shapes and the most playful shapes. Uh, so we see circles and spheres and squiggles and wavy lines, all of those things fall under the aesthetic of play. Uh, then there is surprise, uh, the joy of contrast and the unexpected. So, a pop of color you weren't expecting, um, you know, a jack in the box, like things that sort of, you know, either have a temporal surprise or they have, um, a, a visual surprise.  (12:01): And then magic, magic is the aesthetic of things we can't quite pin down. So, light shattered through a prism or the way that, you know, wind chimes or, um, pinwheels will move on the wind. Um, so it's often the visual manifestations of something invisible or something unseen. Um, and then there is transcendence, transcendence is the aesthetic of things that go up, uh, floating and flying, and sometimes that's us going up and looking down. And sometimes that's us looking up, like, at the bottom of a cathedral, looking up at the stained-glass windows.  (12:40): Um, and then there's celebration. Celebration is the intense collective joy we feel when, you know, there are many of us gathered together. And one of the big elements here is bursting shapes. So, the bursting of a firecracker, the bursting of a, the pop of a champagne cork, or these sort of radial shapes like chandeliers, like big, um, celebratory festive aesthetics. Also, movement, um, like dance and, you know, big exuberant body movements are a big part of celebration.  

Sue Wadden (13:12): Oh my gosh. These are amazing.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (13:15): And then renewal. Renewal's the last one.  

Sue Wadden (13:17): Okay. Yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (13:18): Which is, uh, the joy of blossoming and growth and potential. So, that's things like spirals and, um, you know, any sort of shape that you see in growth in nature. So leaves unfurling, petals opening up, um, uh, flowers are a big p- part of this. Um, but anything that has those sorts of organic shapes that have to do with, uh, the aesthetic of growth.  

Sue Wadden (13:42): And then did you, so I love all this, and it's amazing that you've put them into sort of pillars, right? Like everything that you've mentioned, I just, it brings up a smiles to my face, but do you find that across cultures as well? So, is it sort of transcendent of locations in the world?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (13:58): Yeah. So, the way that I think about it is, um, joy occurs on three levels, right? So, you have probably closest in is the personal joys. And that, some of that is personality based, some of that is just your own life experience, but there are things that you'll find joy in that won't make any sense to me. Um, you know, maybe it's, uh, the wallpaper that was in your grandmother's kitchen. You might have a fondness for that, even if it's not something that's particularly joyful to me, um, it would have meaning to you.  (14:28): Um, or, you know, the, the concert t-shirt from, you know, a band you saw 20 years ago that's falling apart and someone else might look at it and be like, "Why do you keep that old thing?" Right? Um, but it has joy for you. So, that's the personal level. The next level down is the cultural level, which is, has to do with where you grew up, it has to do with your traditions, um, it might have to do with your geography, what sports team you root for, what kind of foods you love to eat. Like a lot of those things have to do with the culture.  (14:57): And so, you'll share those with a group of people. Um, and then the deepest level are these universal aesthetics of joy. And the reason that they're so deep is that they have to do with our evolution. So, in the same way that our bodies evolved in concert with our environment, to be adaptive to our environment, um, our minds also evolved to best navigate our environment. And there are certain traits that are so predictive of survival or of being able to survive long enough to reproduce, because that's of course the, the main driver of evolution is not just surviving, but being able to survive and reproduce that, um, they were hardwired into us.  (15:39): So, a really good example is the round shapes. Um, so neuroscientists have placed people into fMRI machines and they show them pictures of angular objects and round ones. And what they find is that when we look at rounded objects, a part of the brain known as the amygdala stays quiet. Whereas, when we look at sharp angles, that part of the brain lights up. So, knowing that that part of the brain is associated with fear and anxiety, we have this kind of baseline little spike in anxiety when we're around things that are sharp. That makes sense because we evolved in an, in an environment where sharp angles could be dangerous to us.  (16:19): So, if that's the case, then, you know, we would naturally want to avoid that. We would naturally want to at least have some, a little bit of elevation of our anxiety around those shapes to keep us on our guard. And so, when we put those things in our environment now, we still have that response on a very, like deep level. And it's not, um, you know, it's not the, it's not that we can't enjoy being in a space with sharp angles. We can rationally tell ourselves, "Oh, those are far away. They're not gonna hurt me. " Or, you know, "That's part of a stage set or whatever it is, or it's very sophisticated, and so I love it. "  (16:56): But deep down, there's a part of us, the unconscious part of us that we don't control that has that hardwired preference. And so, all of this aesthetics of joy, you can see why it would be adaptive for us to be attracted to rounded objects, for us to be attracted to bright color, which is associated with, um, food and nourishment. We can talk more about that. Um, abundance, which is associated with lushness and an environment that can sustain life. Also, uh, you know, celebration, being drawn toward the company of other people-  

Sue Wadden (17:28): Community.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (17:29): Um, yeah, we are a social species, and so celebration is an important part of how we spread good news. And so, when we have, you know, when we see other people in an experience of joy, we catch that joy, we, we are drawn toward that joy. So, you can see how each of these aesthetics is, is somehow related to our survival and thriving, and that's why these are so deep. And so, it's, it's not that, you know, you might not, I mean, some people probably hate flowers, I'm sure they're out there.  

Sue Wadden (17:59): Sure.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (17:59): I don't, but I don't know anyone who really, um, has, you know, a deep aversion unless they had some sort of learned experience that moved them away from it. And so, joy works on these three levels and these three levels sort of interact with each other. This is our baseline DNA, is this, um, are this aesthetics of joy? And then they get modified so different cultures will like different flowers. Different colors will prefer different colors. Um, but underneath it all, we all love bright c... we're all drawn to bright color, you know, because that is the, the, that's the factory setting-  

Sue Wadden (18:34): It is.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (18:34): ... right? For our, for our humanity.  

Sue Wadden (18:36): For human response. So, as a designer then, how would you bring that in, um, into the design space because there's this definite tension between what is termed or deemed sophisticated and sort of quiet, right, and luxurious and, and this aesthetic of joy. I think there's probably some things that designers could learn. So, can you talk a little bit about that, how you would, who, how you would counsel folks to use these pillars?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (19:00): The first thing I would say is that we have a heritage of designing spaces for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with our well-being, right? So, we design spaces based on status, wanting to impress other people, especially in the corporate space, right? We wanna, you know, you think of those old offices with the, the big heavy wood desks and the ornate things, and then that sort of shifted to a more minimalist aesthetic, but it's still all about money, right? And showing money and power and showing how much power and status an organization has and different people within the organization have.  (19:40): Um, so, and, and then it became about branding, right? And put, and wanting to create a space that reflects your brand, but none of those things really have to do with the people in the space who are living in it and working in it. And so, for me, it always comes back to really checking in to say, is this about, you know, what am I trying to do with this space? Am I trying to make it a billboard or am I trying to make it a space that people in it are going to be the m... yeah, inhabiting, they're gonna be their most productive, they're happiest, they're, they're gonna wanna come here every day or they're gonna wanna come home every night to this space?  (20:21): And so, I think first just really checking in with our motivation and making sure that we have a sense of why we want this space to, to look the way it does. And then, you know, everyone is gonna have different preferences for how much color they want. And depending on what you're using a space for, you know, some people, you know, some functions, it makes sense to have a lot of vibrancy in the space. And in some spaces, for example, a bedroom where you want to unwind and you want it to be a little bit calmer, you're gonna want a more muted color palette.  (20:53): And so, the benefits of the aesthetics of joy are that it allows you to tune your space based on, you know, what you want out of it. So, for example, you might decide to do a space that has a lot of, you know, joyful round shapes, but a very limited color palette or a very muted color palette. But you can bring in joy through, for example, transcendence, through elevation, through, you know, a mobile hung high or a really, you know, phenomenal light fixture up high, um, and, and keep the color palette actually quite muted that conforms to some of those, um, more mainstream expectations of what sophisticated looks like.  (21:35): So, you can actually do both. I always like to do the reset first, because I think it's important for us to really just remember why we're making this space in the first place, but I do think you can achieve both. You can create really sophisticated spaces that are also really playful, um, just by think, you know, knowing that you don't need it to look like a kindergarten classroom in terms of-  

Sue Wadden (21:55): Exactly. You don't have to employ every single practice in a space. You can-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (21:59): Exactly.  

Sue Wadden (22:00): ... pick one and explore it. And, and I love that. I, then that's very good advice, um, because sometimes I think designers forget to find joy a little bit. I think it becomes, you know, I don't know, you get, you get stuck in your daily habits and it's the thing that you do. And so, I love that just reading, um, all the things that you put out, it, uh, it challenged me a little bit-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (22:22): Oh, good.  

Sue Wadden (22:22): ... to think about color and design differently. So, um, I love that idea. So-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (22:27): Yeah, clients are often not gonna ask for that, right? They don't know to ask for it.  

Sue Wadden (22:31): They don't know. Right.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (22:31): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (22:31): So, that's what designers can bring to the table. Um, and I love that you can apply this both in the commercial space, but also in the residential space. So, we'll definitely, we're gonna talk about color here in a second. Um, but talk about the concept of neuro aesthetics. So, as a, as a, uh, field of study, it's fairly new, um, are you getting more and more involved in sort of the research and science aspect? Are you playing there as well?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (22:55): I feel like, um, for me, I'm, it began with joy. When I began to see how connected joy is to other aspects of life. So, for example, uh, research shows that we're much more productive in a state of joy. We're up to 12% more productive in a state of joy. And there's also research that shows that business leaders make better decisions in a state of joy, that negotiators come to more win-win agreements when they're in a state of joy, when they're approaching the negotiation in a state of joy. Um, there's also research that shows that doctors come to a correct diagnosis more quickly in a state of joy.  (23:32): So, there are a lot of ways that, I'm just choosing productivity as one example, like jo... you know, joy sharpens our cognition. Um, you know, there's also research that shows that joy broadens our mindset. So, we actually take in more information from our peripheral vision when we're in a state of joy. Um, and this makes us more cognitively flexible, so it increases our creativity. Um, we're less likely to put things into rigid categories, we're less likely to stereotype when we are in a joyful mindset.  (24:03): And so, knowing that, you know, a lot of what I think about now is, for example, how do we create work environments where people that are optimized for well-being, um, based on, you know, adding some of these aesthetics of joy, not just because we want people to be happy in those spaces, because we absolutely do. But also, because it will affect their cognition on an unconscious level and they will, they'll be more productive, they'll make better decisions, they actually work better, uh, collaboratively together when they're in a space that feeds them.  (24:40): Um, so, uh, you know, for me, I'm, I'm interested in synthesizing all of this research in a way that it makes it accessible for designers and for, um, people who are bringing in designers. A lot of what designers struggle with is making the case, right? Designers often wanna bring joy to a space, but it's hard to make the case for it because it f... you know, it feels different than the way that people are used to working. And so, for me, it's about giving designers the tools to use these ideas, but also the ammo to make the case so that they can bring this into more spaces.  

Sue Wadden (25:20): I love that. It's, uh, we've talked recently about the value proposition of design. You know, designers inherently understand the value. Their homeowners do as well, that's why they're hiring a, a professional, but like communicating that value is often difficult. So, your resources really can help with that conversation, uh, which I think is helpful, again, out of, this is a newish, there's a, this is a new, uh, field of study. So, it, it, it's great for people to do, um, sort of their homework on this, on all of the, all of the things that you bring forth. Uh, but I wanna get to color. So, how does, how did, what have you learned about how color brings joy over the years?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (25:58): When I first started researching color for, um, the, I mean, it was the first aesthetic of joy that stood out to me, was this idea of energy. The color is energizing, um, and I, then I started to trace that back and try to understand why. And one of the things that I discovered is that our color vision evolved in part to help our primate ancestors find ripe fruits and young leaves in the treetop canopies. So, a big shift for, you know, for primates was to go from being nocturnal to being diurnal, to foraging in the day. And vision, you know, color vision was a big part of that.  (26:37): And so, the ways that our brains evolve, you know, a lot of times our sensory apparatus evolves in concert with our, um, our survival needs. And so, eating and finding enough nourishment is like one of the most fundamental needs. So, the parts of our brain that feel reward spike when we see bright color because that is an indication that nourishment is on the way. And it's okay that, you know, if you paint your walls a vibrant color, it's not the same as, you know, you can't eat that.  

Sue Wadden (27:15): Right.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (27:15): Right.  

Sue Wadden (27:16): Right.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (27:17): But it's tapping into the same circuits that were, those circuits were laid down, you know, in evolution and i- in our evolution, those circuits were laid down in concert with sugar, literally with glucose, right?  

Sue Wadden (27:30): Right.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (27:30): Um-  

Sue Wadden (27:33): With the, the dopamine hit, right?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (27:33): Like the primal-  

Sue Wadden (27:33): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (27:34): ... molecule of existence, like of our survival of glucose. And then over time, you know, we started to be able to find joy and color other places. So, I think that's so powerful because you are, when you were designing with color, you were tapping into literally the primal nourishment circuits of the brain.  

Sue Wadden (27:55): I, that is absolutely true. And then you layer in cultural geographies, like all these, you know, sort of, like you said, you've got layers. So then, how does like the deeper tones, instead of like the dopamine hit of brights, how does deeper color factor in?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (28:12): I think, you know, the way that I think about it is, so from a joy perspective, um, right, saturation and, um, and lightness tend to be the things that drive joy. So, you can pick any hue you like, um, and if you have bright saturated colors, they will evoke joy. But at the same time, um, you know, there are lots of, um, there's lots of joy to be found in deeper colors that are associated, for example, with nature. So, like deep greens, deep blues, like nature has the full palette, um, and when a color, I think when you, when a color feels like it sort of taps into something maybe a little bit more primal, like listen to that, um, because there's probably some connection to an environment that feels good to you.  

Sue Wadden (29:05): Yeah. We've talked about that, um, with my team at, at length, how deep colors, uh, they create a sort of a sense of sanctuary and probably safety that you feel sort of enveloped by a dark color, you know, a deep brown or a black or a charcoal and how that can be reassurance. So, maybe that's not outwardly like joyful, you're not running around like skipping and dancing and happy, but you get a sense of security and in that security is safety. So, I think biologically people feel like safe and secure. Um, so that, that would be a component of this, don't you think?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (29:37): I think that's, I think that's true. I also think that those kinds of colors, um, make great canvases for little sm... you know, smaller pops of color. So, for example, if you are someone who, uh, bright colors is just not your thing and it feels too intense, but maybe there's a little bit of a pop that brings energy into a space without having, because I, I think that those darker colors, they, they don't bring energy, but they bring something else. Um, they bring something different, but if you wanted that energy, you can bring it back in through like these little pops or through your lighting, you know, how you light the space.  (30:15): Um, so I think, you know, color, color is so, there's so much that it can create in a space and it doesn't always have to be joy. Um, but it's useful to know what are the, you know, what kinds of colors will, like what choices will tune a color toward joy or toward a more sort of secure like sanctuary-like environment.  

Sue Wadden (30:43): Okay. So, love that. If you were, and just say we're talking to, you know, homeowners or, or sort of the consumer side of this, would you say that living spaces, spaces where you wanna bring great energy, kitchens, entertaining spaces, um, you know, TV rooms even? Well, I don't know, maybe I would do something different there. How, should they look at color, sort of the joy of color for those spaces versus respite spaces? Is it, do you have any guidance there?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (31:11): For me, that's really individual, because some people want, you know, e- e- everyone's gonna want different things, but I, I love color as a device for bringing people together. Um, so, you know, there's this, I forget what it, it's like, um, do they call them bedroom families or, you know, the, there's this term going around about families where everyone sort of disperses to their own bedroom versus spends time in the common room, um, or in the common areas of a home. And I think a lot about that in the home because I think that a lot of the best memories are made when you're together with your family.  (31:50): And so, if you want to create spaces where the family spends time together, bringing color into the heart of the home feels really important. And again, it doesn't have to be every surface, but bring, you know, sometimes it's painting furniture or, you know, I mean, my kitchen's green, my living room's blue, um, my dining room is green like my kitchen. Uh, I live in a very colorful home and it is always interesting to see people's reactions when they walk in. Usually, it's like people who are doing work on the house. They'll walk in-  

Sue Wadden (32:21): (laughs)  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (32:21): ... and they'll just go, "Wow-"  

Sue Wadden (32:24): (laughs)  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (32:24): ... like, "This is fun. I didn't expect, you know, I've never seen a house like this," because everyone's house where I live is white and beige.  

Sue Wadden (32:32): Very muted. Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (32:33): I live in, I live near the beach. So, everyone has the, you know, the, the grayish home. And so, people walk in and they're like, "Whoa." But it does bring you into those parts of the home because you wanna be there.  

Sue Wadden (32:47): I have found through my experience, I've been doing this, you know, 25 years in color marketing and I call it the puritanical aesthetic. So, the Northeast is very, very restrained for the most part. There's some timeless colors that make their way in, but it's, it's a very muted neutral palette and that's kind of where the conventions are. But, you know, I, I was saying in the, before we jumped on this call, um, or recording that I was in Florida and, you know, colors everywhere and an ex... an explosion and a sort of reflection of what's going on outside. There's so much vibrancy and I love watching the difference of people interacting in the spaces, the laughter, the joy, um, but I, we forget how to use color.  (33:29): So, that's what I really love about your resources that encourages people. And it's not just color, it's shape, it's texture, it's pattern, it's layering these things together to create something that's personalized, very customized, very reflective of your family, and we've kind of forgotten how to do that. Um, so I really just appreciate all the work that you've done to sort of bring this back and do it in such a way that's playful and articulate and fun to listen to. Um, we'll talk about how people can find your information, but your TED Talk, was that in 2018? Did you-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (33:58): 2018, yup.  

Sue Wadden (33:59): And I remember, you know, it was pre-COVID, so we didn't know what was coming, um, and I remember catching it. It was probably on a, a newsfeed from some design publishing, publication that I got, and it just stopped me in my tracks. It was such a, like breath of fresh air. We were coming out of the housing crisis, it was Scandinavian minimalism, it was gray and white everywhere. And you brought such a, like it opened my eyes and I was, I'm in an industry of color. So, thank you for that. Um-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (34:29): Aw.  

Sue Wadden (34:30): Do you still get those responses? Do people still-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (34:33): Well, it's funny, Ted, we shared it just like, uh, two weeks ago and, um, you know, so you get a lot of people seeing it for the first time. And that's always really fun to remember that even though I've been living with this idea for more than, I mean, fif... like 15 years now, but there are people who are just coming into the, to it the first time. And it's, it's especially, um, gratifying I think to hear designers and artists who have a natural inclination toward color, but have often felt like they had to tone it down to be acceptable.  

Sue Wadden (35:06): To be tasteful, right?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (35:08): To be tasteful, to be acceptable. Those designers to, to, when they read my work or when they hear the TED Talk, it, it's almost like they feel validated in their natural inclinations and gives them more courage I, I hope, to go do the thing that, um, is, like is within them. You know, is to, to express that, um, for their clients 'cause I think we all lose out when we're all just toning it down.  

Sue Wadden (35:38): We do. So, you, uh, you'll laugh. We're talking and each of us are kind of sitting in a neutral room though. Maybe yours is a little pinkier, but, um, this is my dining room where I record and I, it's been 17 different colors. And so, I needed a palette cleanse, so I just made it this really pretty creamy white and it's kind of living in this space, but I think, you know, within the next six months, I'm gonna change it to something else.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (35:57): Mm-hmm.  

Sue Wadden (35:58): Uh, it's like my little Petri dish, like I play in this space-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (36:00): Mm-hmm.  

Sue Wadden (36:01): ... because kind of smallish. Uh, but it, it, it takes time and evolution. I, the person I was when I was 20 is very different than I am now at this age. And I've learned a lot about color, you know, I, I liked the colors of rust. For whatever reason, rusty tones, I think it's just probably a lot of biophilic like nature inspired.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (36:22): Mm-hmm.  

Sue Wadden (36:22): Deep greens, deep browns, like those warmer tones, they resonate with me. They're really sort of defining of my aesthetic, and I always come back to them. I cannot paint blue in my life in this home. I don't know what it is. It is just, I try to put it in a hallway or somewhere, I can't do it. So-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (36:39): Right.  

Sue Wadden (36:40): ... I think that's an interesting conversation too. Um, like, what is trending? How do we bring those into our life? What, what is, um, pop culture? How does that turn color on its head? So, do you have any advice on that? Like for homeowners, maybe not for designers, designers kinda know what to do there, but, um-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (36:58): Yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like, um, you know, people often ask me what's the most joyful color and they expect me to say yellow or something like that. Um, but what I think is powerful about this research is that it, it suggests that actually any color can be a joyful color. It's again, how you tune it. And, um, so I think, you know, what designers, um, can bring and what homeowners can learn, um, and I teach this, uh, for, you know, direct to, uh, homeowners or, or renters, anyone decorating a space is, is to, to understand color in terms of the saturation and the lightness, not just the hue.  (37:42): So, it's not just blue, yellow, you know, orange or green, it's, you know, the world of greens is so vast and being able to walk into a paint store and understand, "Oh, you know what, what I really, I love this green, but I really need it a little less saturated." And then it would feel good to me. So, being able to understand, you know, how to use, you know, designers know well how to use those spectrums, the hue, saturation and brightness spectrums, but, um, but for, but for people, you know, who are just doing it on their own, being able to understand the connection between feeling what's actually happening in your body when you look at a brighter or a less bright color.  (38:22): Understanding that, you know, there's a sort of activation, a physiological activation when you look at a bright color, and then there's, you know, when you look at a more muted color, it will feel more grounding. Like being able to understand that and knowing how to tune that color, I think is really, it gives you a lot of freedom because you can choose the colors you like. And, and so to speak to your question about pop culture and trends and all of these things, these things are gonna wash over us. And I'm a big believer in choosing colors based on how you want the space to feel and, and not getting so caught up and, you know, that stuff is gonna influence you anyway, it's the environment that you're in.  (39:00): Um, but really, for me, I like to start by having, you know, going into the space and thinking, how do I wanna feel in this space, coming up with a few words, um, or a phrase. You know, in my case, um, a big part of how I wanted to feel was, you know, we live in a seasonal community, and in the winters, it can be pretty bleak. Um, so, uh, yeah, so it's like all brown, it's all trees without leaves. And so, I thought, "Wouldn't it be great to feel in a home that oh, to be in a home that always feels like summer vacation? And so, for me, I was really thinking about the colors, the green of summer, the blue of the summer sky.  (39:40): And so, those are the colors that are sort of anchor colors in my home. Um, and I, you know, I have a bright floral wallpaper that just really feels like-  

Sue Wadden (39:50): Brings it all together.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (39:51): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (39:51): Yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (39:52): And so, I, I, to me, thinking about how you wanna feel on the space, then, you know, painting samples of the colors and, and really feeling, is this a match? Like, do- does this match the feeling I'm going for as opposed to, you know, trends or what anyone else is thinking about it?  

Sue Wadden (40:11): I love that idea. So, most people, and I'll tell you, going into a, a paint store and looking at a wall of color is very intimidating for most people, they, it blows their mind. But I love that idea. So, say you wanna work on your bedroom and there's certain feelings that you want to, to achieve there, right? Respite, joy, whatever. Then going into a store and not being intimidated by that color experience, just start pulling chips that help you feel that way. That is, uh, that is very different than most people in how they make selections on color. So, what a great encouraging idea.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (40:44): Right. And I, and I also think that a lot of times when we paint the sample, we're going, "Is this right?"  

Sue Wadden (40:50): Second guessing.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (40:51): "Is this right?"  

Sue Wadden (40:53): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (40:53): "Is this right?" And what do we mean by right? Is this right because when my mother-in-law comes over, she's not gonna make a comment (laughs), right? Or is this right because, you know, it looks like the picture that I saw on Pinterest that, you know, that's, I feel like a lot of what ends up happening is we have other voices in our heads that cause us to doubt and we can't even hear the inner feeling for the color. And so, what I really try to do is help people tune back into the feeling that you want and then, "Okay, well, let's think about other places you felt that.  (41:25): Did you feel that on vacation when you were in, you know, the tropics or Hawaii? Did you feel that when you went to some, you know, B&B, um, you know, upstate?" Like, where did you feel that and what are some of the, you know, spaces that you associate with that feeling? And then what colors were present in those spaces? And for you, maybe, I don't know where the rust comes from, but did you have magical desert experiences or amazing sunsets or something that is, that's speaking to you from deep within?  

Sue Wadden (41:58): I don't know. And I wanna think about that a little bit. I've never, ever thought about it that way. I just know that those are the col... I was, I was a metals major. So, I went to art school. My background is kinda similar to you.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:07): Well, there you go.  

Sue Wadden (42:08): I thought I was gonna be a jewelry designer because I love working with my hands and I love that material and like copper tones, like they just-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:14): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (42:14): ... always love them. And so, maybe that's the background. I don't know, I'm gonna fi... I'm gonna explore that. So-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:21): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (42:21): ... thank you for that.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:23): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (42:23): Um-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:24): And, and I think it's useful to remember that like kids, for example, have such a close feel for this. So, this is innate to have just like a, a lo... a deep love of color, um, and to know what colors you love is, I mean, most kids, you ask them their favorite color, they know immediately.  

Sue Wadden (42:42): They do.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:42): And my child has a red bed and a red, you know, we painted one of the door f... the trim was in his room red and he wears red every day. He's going to be a red Lego for Halloween. Like-  

Sue Wadden (42:52): That's cute. (laughs)  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (42:53): ... we are like, you know, we're deep in that color because that is what, and he, he actually just made an announcement (laughs) you may appreciate this, but made an announcement, um, the other day, uh, and it's been red, red, red for three plus solid years, almost four years.  

Sue Wadden (43:10): That's committed.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:10): And the other day he made an announcement and he said, "My favorite colors have changed."  

Sue Wadden (43:14): Oh.  Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:14): And we were a little nervous that we were gonna have to like repaint (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (43:20): (laughs)  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:21): But he told us that his new favorite color is rainbow.  

Sue Wadden (43:23): Oh-  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:23): So, that feels like-  

Sue Wadden (43:24): ... all of the colors.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:24): ... very doable.  

Sue Wadden (43:26): Yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:26): Um, but, but point being, most kids have a really good sense of whether they like a color or not. Um, so that's in us. It's peeling back all of the layers of what we've been told and what we're always being told to get to that feeling.  

Sue Wadden (43:41): Okay. So, what's your favorite color? Because I have to ask.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:44): Ooh, my favorite color. Well, here is the, hmm, my favorite color is red, but because my son's favorite color is red, I've been given yellow. (laughs)  

Sue Wadden (43:55): Oh my god, that's funny.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:56): I've been assigned yellow because I'm, we're not allowed, I mean-  

Sue Wadden (43:58): You can't take it.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (43:59): I think a lot of the reason his favorite color is red is because I was pu... always putting him in red when he was a kid so we could match.  

Sue Wadden (44:04): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (44:04): And then he decided his favorite color is red and now, um, so now when we do family things, I, you know, I always pick yellow, but most of my closet has a lot of reds and greens in it, um, because those are my favorite colors.  

Sue Wadden (44:16): Those are great and yes. Well, I think it's fair to say mine is like terracotta. I love orange.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (44:20): Uh-huh.  

Sue Wadden (44:20): I love all kinds of oranges coral, so those are, that's mine. Um, all right. So, we're, you've been very generous with your time, but I just have a couple more questions. How, what advice would you give to designers who wanna rediscover some joy? What, what should they do? What are some ideas on how to get back to color, if they're feeling it?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (44:38): Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I think, well, part of it is, um, I think sometimes when we, to your point, like, when we try to play with color, it feels overwhelming. So, I, if you wanna get back to color, I would kind of not think about color, and I would just go do something that brings you joy and brings you into your body. Um, so that could be, you know, walking in nature, swimming, hiking, um, any, any kind of activity that gets you moving and, um, playing and doing something, you know, with other people.  (45:14): So, I would, um, you know, even just going to a museum or, you know, but with friends, but doing something that is sensory, but actually don't think about the color.  

Sue Wadden (45:24): That's really good advice. Um, I was also thinking, like, maybe you could just get out your art set, right, from art school and play around with color. Sometimes I find that when I'm stuck, if I just put a little bunch of paints out, it's really fun. And again, it's the joy aspect of it.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (45:38): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (45:38): It's really helpful.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (45:39): Something playful. And I really think this is, like the getting out of your head and into your body is the most important thing. So, anything that can get you physically moving. You know, for, for example, and this has really nothing to do with color, but, um, some of the studies have shown that, um, making curving motions with your body, um, in- increases your creativity, it broadens your mindset. So, I think what we're looking for is to be able to broaden out. Um, so if you find you're always going to the same few colors because that's, you know, the, the color rut that you're in.  (46:11): Like doing things to get your body into a space that it is more open and creative, I think that is when the insight will hit you as opposed to trying to, like color your way through it.  

Sue Wadden (46:26): That is really, really, really good advice. Um, well, I've, I've enjoyed this so much. Thank you for just giving your time and giving all your insights. How can people find out more about you and find you? 

Ingrid Fetell Lee (46:38): Uh, so, uh, you can find me at, um, aestheticsofjoy.com. Um, you can also find me @IngridFetell on Instagram. Um, and we now have, uh, our own private community, which is devoted to joy. Um, it's a private community devoted to joy. We do weekly prompts around finding more joy in daily life. Um, and, uh, it's a really special place, we have a book club, um, so we read a joy related book every month. Um, and we'll have, you know, when my, um, home course opens, um, in the new year, we'll have a separate dedicated discussion space just for, um, you know, attendees and students and alums, um, that is just focused on designing a home you love, so.  

Sue Wadden (47:24): That's amazing. I'm totally gonna do that, by the way. Sorry if I'm a stalker. I'll be there.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:27): (laughing) No, I would love, I would love to have you in this year's course. It usually opens in March, so, uh-  

Sue Wadden (47:31): Okay.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:32): So yeah, but we'll have, normally that's, uh, you know, we have two live Q&As, but this year we're gonna have, like, a discussion group the whole time-  

Sue Wadden (47:39): Okay.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:40): ... um, as part of our broader community, The Commons, so.  

Sue Wadden (47:43): Wonderful. And as always, you know, your book is out there. Can you get it on at any retailers usually?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:49): Anywhere books are sold-  

Sue Wadden (47:49): Yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:50): ... you can get it on Audible, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it on, uh, Libby.  

Sue Wadden (47:53): Yes.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:54): Um, so anywhere-  

Sue Wadden (47:55): Yeah.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (47:55): ... where books are available.  

Sue Wadden (47:56): And you can search out the TED Talk, right? I mean, you're, you're, um, you, you're such a great speaker and you do such a, a nice job. So, we really appreciate it and thank you for your time.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (48:06): Oh, thank you so for having me.  

Sue Wadden (48:06): Um, so anything else you wanna say to these audiences, this audience that loves color?  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (48:11): Oh, my goodness. Um, you're on the right track and hopefully you will help make our world a more colorful and more vibrant one for everyone. I mean, I think that's the, that's the, the thing about it is when you add color to a space, you don't do it just for you. You do it for all the people who are coming in and out of your space, um, and you, it's a gift.  

Sue Wadden (48:31): Beautiful, beautiful. Well, thank you so much and thanks for joining us on Color Mixology.  

Ingrid Fetell Lee (48:36): Hello, thank you so much for having me.  

Sue Wadden (48:41): And finally, we'd like to congratulate our December designer of the month, Ariene Bethea, the visionary behind the award-winning Dressing Rooms Interior Studio, based in Charlotte, North Carolina. Please join us in celebrating her and her effortlessly curated and undeniably joyful aesthetic at SW Design Pros on social media. As always, thanks so much for listening to this episode of Color Mixology.