(01:33): But in my everyday work, I get to work with residential clients who are working on residential renovations and new builds. And then we've also been doing a lot of commercial work for multifamily development, which is sort of becoming a passion project for me because it is an opportunity for me to really create environments where people can have pride in their home, even if it's something that is temporary. But really thinking about how to make sure that these spaces and buildings rise to the occasion and create the right environment for them to feel seen and heard and loved and to be able to impact so many more people at one time.  

(02:08): So the commercial space and multifamily development has definitely become something that I look forward to working on and it will be a lot of the work we continue to do over the next few years. So if I had to think about what I see as the, the current pulse of design and try to do one word, (laughs) that's hard, but maybe (laughs), maybe what I would say is what I think I'm seeing what I h... and what I hope I'm reading correctly is courage. And courage being kind of the ability to think about how you want to design and create your home that is absent from the judgment opinion or perceived value of anyone other than yourself. That is truly what the luxury (laughs) of design is.  

(02:54): And I think for so long, people were really nervous about doing anything that would, you know, mess up resale value or, like, not be the current trend or, like, I didn't see that on Instagram, so is it right? And really kind of externally allow people to validate their choices. Now I feel like people are kind of turning inward, becoming more in tune with who they are and what they like, and they are committed to being their most authentic selves. And you see it ex... as an expression of how they are designing their homes and the risks they're willing to take. And that used to be something you only saw at the very top-tier luxury echelon. But I think now even in mainstream, you see people embracing that courage and really taking bolder steps in their designs.  

Sue Wadden (03:39): Yes, which thank goodness, right? 'Cause if we had 10 more years of gray and white, I don't, I don't know that I could have taken it.  

Arianne Bellizaire (03:45): Right. You'd be outta business (laughs). Please, there are multiple colors (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (03:50): Yeah. It just gets so exhausting. So people need that. They, they need that courage. That's a great word. I love it. Okay. Sara, what about, what are you thinking?  

Sara Malek Barney (03:59): Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, I'm so excited to be here, and I'm not gonna be as eloquent (laughs) in the slightest, I have not had enough coffee. Yeah. So I'm the founder and principal designer for BANDD/DESIGN. We are headquartered in Austin, Texas and have an office in Los Angeles, California. And we focus on high-end residential primarily. We do a little bit of commercial work, but it really needs to be, feel really, really special if we're gonna take it on 'cause I find it not my fave.  

(04:30): Um, I love, I love the emotional component of residential design for better, for worse. I love the roller coaster of it. So that's where we love to play. And we do everything from small remodels and refreshes all the way to custom ground-up construction. And I like to play in all different sizes of spaces. Right now, we've got a lot going on. We ... So because we have an office in Austin and in LA, I, I'm on a plane quite a bit going back and forth, which I love, and it's actually worked very well for both me and the business. But specifically, we are wrapping up, literally starting today, the house, beautiful whole home of the year for which there is filled with many, many delicious Sherwin-Williams paint colors in it. But today's the first day of install and I am a nervous wreck and I feel like I'm gonna throw up (laughs) everywhere.  

Sue Wadden (05:22): (laughs) I can't wait to see it.  

Sara Malek Barney (05:24): But I'm so excited. This is probably the most pivotal moment of my career. So we're wrapping it up, me as the lead, and, and I just can't believe it's all coming to life now after many, many years of talking about it now, several months of actually doing it, so.  

Sue Wadden (05:39): Now it's here.  

Sara Malek Barney (05:40): Yeah, it's here. And next week, when we really load in everything, I might be really sick, but (laughs) here we are. So that's one of the amazing things happening. And, you know, lots of other great work going on. I'm really excited to be helping several clients. And in fact, right now, I have a return client who we're working on their primary residence. We did their vacation home a couple of years ago, and their vacation home was affected by the Texas floods this summer. So now we're having to redo that home. And that was ... You know, I know people who ... Obviously, I know many designers who lost their work and people who lost their homes in the LA fires, but for it to really hit home, it's like, "Oh, like, that hurts so bad."  

(06:20): So I, I'm excited to help them get it and bring it back to life. So there's just a lot, and I'm excited. And in terms of what I'm seeing out there, kind of what Arianne said, like courage is a great word. I think people are less scared of color and they're letting us play a little bit more. If I, you know, s- say let's throw yellow on the wall, they're not gonna look at me like I've lost my mind, like they may have five years ago. And on top of that, when I say, "Hey, let's also paint the ceiling," they don't look at me weird anymore (laughs).  

(06:51): And so they're open to trying things in new places. We don't have to do white baseboards. We don't have to do white ceilings. We can throw color in places that are not really unexpected for a designer, but might be unexpected for the traditional homeowner, and they're more open and receptive to it. So I'm really excited about that 'cause it really elevates the space. Even if you're working in a mid-range budget, you can make it feel so much richer and fuller. So I'm excited to see where that goes and hope people keep saying yes.  

Sue Wadden (07:18): I totally agree, you guys. It's taken us a bit, we've been talking about this change and talking about it for, like, five years, and now I feel like it's finally here. So that's gonna lead kind of into our exploration of color trends, which is great. So where ... You know, residential design can be different than commercial design, obviously, for obvious reasons, but where do you find your inspiration for residential design lately, I guess? Sara, we can start with you.  

Sara Malek Barney (07:43): Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm, I would be lying if I didn't say I look at other designers' work and other designs out in the world. That's a, a great way to get your brain sort of going and, and satiate the palette. And this is sort of a, a pretty standard answer, but travel is a big one for me. And just going out and seeing the spaces, like Arianne talking about traveling all over for Extreme Home Makeover. Actually, I'm about to post an Instagram reel talking about the five best things about being a designer. And I joke about this, but, like, one of the only bonuses we get in this job is that we get to travel for our job.  

(08:15): And, and people are always surprised to hear that when I say like, "Next week, I'm going to Italy to go check out Natural Stone," and it's not because I just wanna go to Italy, it's because I've been invited to go see this stone. And that's a bonus of the job. But what, with it comes the education from seeing spaces around the world and cultures and textures and all the things you don't get to experience maybe right in your backyard. So for me, that's a really great place to find inspiration.  

Sue Wadden (08:43): Oh, great. Love it.  

Arianne Bellizaire (08:45): Yeah, travel, for sure (laughs). And for the reasons like, that you mentioned, I, I don't think I've ever consciously thought about the fact that that's a perk of the job, but it really is, it's a part of our research and development is that we get to and have to get out of our four walls to see the world. It's why when we go to Italy or go to any part of Europe, we are blown away by the architecture and the structures. If you look at the root of those structures, they are influenced by where those people traveled. So they will, they would go hundreds of years ago (laughs) to another part of the world, be influenced and informed, come back and bring a version of that to their world. And now we are appreciating their interpretation of that. That's what design is, and that's what we get to do in our own small way (laughs).  

(09:31): But I would also say that a part of my inspiration always kind of goes back to and is, is rooted in the story of the, the people that I'm helping, the family that I'm helping. So if it's on a residential project, I'm really curious about what they love and what they've experienced and what makes them who they are. And then I wanna go deep in that. So I might learn ... You know, we had a project last year, we just actually finished it, been photographed at the beginning of this year, but I worked with a, a client who they were downsizing from the stream home that they had built. They bought a new home and one of the things that they shared was that the, the husband had, like, a 20-year sobriety journey, and his faith was very important to him.  

(10:14): And so he was like, "That is important to me, but my wife wants to hire a designer, it's whatever she wants." And she was like, "I, you know, I have want ... I just don't want it to look like a cathedral. (laughs) I don't want to ... Like, I'm walking into a house that's like, you know, (laughs) a shrine." And so I was like, the challenge of being able to make him feel seen and heard while appreciating the aesthetic she wanted was one I loved taking on.  

(10:40): And so if you saw that project, you would see a beautiful home. You would not see anything that was overtly religious or anything that was like in your face. But everything from the shade of blue that we chose for the ceiling to the light fixture, to the way we bought in alabaster elements, everything was ... I would walk him through the house and say, "These are Easter eggs for you." And the research it took to know, like, what he needed to see and signal and to be able to kind of fold it into a home in a way that was seamless and that was not so in your face, but it felt really special because it was kind of like his secret notes, that's what I feel like every project has for me. It's that ability to let the clients inspire me and let them kind of guide me on where I wanna go deep.  

(11:24): And then if that means a trip, great (laughs). Or if that means, you know, I'm researching online or, like, asking ChatGPT a million questions about (laughs), like, what are the, what's the symbolism like, whatever it is, that's a part of, like, the fun part of our job. We get to continuously learn. There's never a moment that we're ever gonna say we know everything and we've learned all the things. Our job is when we are continuing to learn every day. New, wild, (laughs) random facts that we bring into projects to make sure that our clients feel seen and heard.  

Sue Wadden (11:54): 100% agree. And what they don't teach you in design school is that that's the one of the biggest parts of being a residential designer is that you're, you know, part therapist, right, part problem solver.  

Sara Malek Barney (12:05): 80% therapist (laughs).  

Arianne Bellizaire (12:07): That's right (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (12:08): You know, people that haven't worked with a designer before, I think that this is the most glamorous job in the world and, yes, part of this is, but it's also really tough. You are on site, you are running crazy hours, you are having to solve problems that not the average person has to do in their day-to-day work. So kudos to both of you, right?  

Sara Malek Barney (12:27): I came from an entertainment background and I was told I needed a thick skin th- there, but like nothing prepares you for the thick skin and problem solving ability you need as a designer (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (12:37): Completely. And, you know, it's intensely personal. You're in people's homes, right? Of course, it's personal. So navigating and getting your vision to s... over the finish line in someone else's home is really challenging. So kudos to you guys for doing great work and, like, keeping us going, right?  

(12:55): So my next question is a little outside of interiors and I think we touched on for both of you that travel is an influence, but is there something else, you know, fashion, movies, shows, an artist, like what recently, if you can think about, has sparked a color moment for you maybe this summer that was outside of the norm?  

Sara Malek Barney (13:14): Well, I will say I'm not a big fashion girly. I'm not, I'm not changing my wardrobe out, you know, every season. But I do sort of visually participate out there in the world and like to see what's out there. And I ... Typically speaking, interior design has sort of followed fashion. And about a year ago when I started seeing yellow everywhere, like your beautiful shirt ...  

Arianne Bellizaire (13:36): (laughs)  

Sara Malek Barney (13:36): ... I was like, "Oh, okay, we're gonna be doing yellow now, probably in about a year." And, of course, like what did I design two weeks ago? A yellow bathroom that I would have never, it would have never crossed my mind before. So I'd be lying to say I wasn't inspired by fashion in some way. It's not necessarily in my own day-to-day changes, but we saw it with brown, we're seeing it with yellow. So fashion is, is definitely a current that, that I follow.  

Arianne Bellizaire (14:01): I agree. I'm not a huge, like, devotee to fashion, but I'm aware of kind of their trends 'cause I know that there's some parallel. I think ... To think about your question of, like, what inspires me outside of travel that I could bring into design and specifically color, I think one of the things that I committed to this year was kind of a return to my creativity. You know, believe it or not, as designers, we, we hit a wall (laughs). We, we hit a wall. It's either because of burnout or overwhelm or, like, all of the things or the world. Like, there's many reasons where we feel like we just kind of tapped out creatively. And so I, uh, read this book or didn't finish it yet, but I'm reading this book called The Artist's Way (laughs).  

Sara Malek Barney (14:44): (laughs)  

Sue Wadden (14:44): [inaudible 00:14:45].  

Sara Malek Barney (14:45): No judgments. No judgments (laughs).  

Arianne Bellizaire (14:47): Not a whole lot of extra time, but The Artist's Way was a book that talks about how to return to your, your intuitive creative, like your, your, your inner child. And it encourages you to journal but also to do these, like, weekly artist dates. And so one of the weeks I chose as an artist date to do something that I used to do all the time when I was in design school and then I got out of it, but it was my favorite part of design school, it was color theory and we would have to take something, a photo or a fabric, and we would have to use primary colors to recreate the colors that we saw.  

(15:22): So it really trains your eye to understand the nuance of color. Not just, like, see it flat, but go, "Oh, well, that's a, you know, red with a little bit of violet, with a little bit, like," and you can kind of see it. And so I had the best afternoon taking a fabric (laughs) out of one of my boxes and taking out my paint and, like, literally trying to ... And I actually have it if I could ... This is too far away, but, like, recreating the shades within that fabric.  

(15:52): And I loved everything about it because while with Sherwin-Williams, we have beautiful palettes and we have this incredible fan deck and we have all of the tools. Don't forget you can also customize (laughs) and you can also, you know, use their tools and resources to adjust colors if you need to or, you know, if you want something that's a little bit more spot on or a little bit more muted or a little bit more nuanced, but you have to understand color to be able to explain what you're trying to get to in the end.  

(16:23): You can't just go, "I kind of think I want," like, you've gotta be able to guide them. Let's try a little bit more black, let's try a little bit more blue. And that, to me, is something that I loved honing in design school, but I also wanna bring that more back into my daily creative practice. I think it's just so relaxing, you know, to try to paint and mix and adjust shades. And so I think that is informing and influencing and inspiring me to think differently about the colors that I choose and how I'm using them and whether or not the way that I see them presented is the way I wanna use them or if I wanna make some adjustments to them.  

Sue Wadden (17:00): Yeah, I think that's a great practice for veteran designers. You know, we do that so much color theory when we're in school, but when you get practicing, you get in your rhythms, you find your favorite colors, it's hard to break out of your norms. So for our team, we, like, often are ... When we're building palettes, we'll, we have, like, our beautiful, like, organized color file and then we have a messy one, where we just, like, take color chips out and put them down on a table and you just have the chance to play and pull interesting, uh, combinations together. And it's, like, it is a, it's a little therapy session where you feel like you're still working, but you're, like, getting, you're breaking out of your routine. It's fun.  

Arianne Bellizaire (17:38): It's that element of play that, you know, when we reach a certain level with our careers, and that I'm sure Sara can attest, you don't really leave margin for play. You're so focused on the work in front of you and like, you know, deadlines and you got team, you know, team that depends on your clients that need you. And so we don't really carve out the space or the play, which is where the creativity actually lives. And, and i- it's what we kind of need to proactively and intentionally mark out for ourselves so that we always have a little bit in that well. You know, we're not running that well dry and then kind of going, "I have nothing, nothing left (laughs) to give."  

Sue Wadden (18:13): And, like, giving yourself permission to do it. It's okay to take and maybe it's on your own time, right? Now, it's not billable time, but it's important. I don't know, color, color, color can save the day. I tell you what.  

(18:24): So let's talk a little bit about color mix. You guys have seen the forecast palette. So our color mix 2026 anthology volume two. For any listeners that aren't familiar with our forecast, this is our biennial. So every two years, we come out with, like, a purely color forecast. It's not, not so much about the design trends, it's more about the color families. And because we got, have gotten feedback from designers that they really wanna know and, like, see the arc of where color is going.  

(18:53): So this year, we've got a palette of frosted tints, which I wouldn't call pastels because they're not sweet. Uh, they're sort of muted. So we like the idea of frostiness and cool, almost like a, an analogous color palette of greens, sort of purples and, and blues. We have reds and golds on the other side of the spectrum, which is autumnal shades, which happens to be, that's like my sweet spot. I love warm colors. But then dark, dark, deep dark colors and nuance neutral. So four palettes of really where we're seeing and forecasting where color's going.  

(19:24): But I'll ask both of you, are there any color families in here that surprised you or, or something we missed? Like, what are you seeing maybe that's not in the forecast that we should pay attention to for next year? So Arianne, let's start with you on this one. Put you on the hot seat.  

Arianne Bellizaire (19:38): I definitely was drawn to the restorative darks. Restorative, yeah, darks. That's right (laughs). Especially being in Louisiana, where our spaces tend to be a little bit more traditional. I mean, I feel like they could go with any design style, but the, that palette and the richness of it was what I was drawn to first is my favorite. I was surprised at the frosted tints 'cause I, I was like, "Is that really, like, something that we're pulling or going to be pulling or referencing or people are gonna need or want those?" And that was the one that I was the most like, "I don't know," until I took my European tour this summer (laughs). And I realized if you look at a picture, right, (laughs) you look at a picture of, for example, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, which is ac... like, it's really leaning. You know, I don't know how I passed code. I don't know (laughs). I don't know. It's really leaning (laughs).  

(20:35): But I have always heard of and learned about that structure for its unique, like, quirkiness, right? I didn't realize it's covered in this beautiful marble that has all of these beautiful shades. And many of them are like these subtle blues, subtle greens, subtle violets. And I ... That frosted tint moment that I couldn't really kind of connect looking at the palette itself, I could see the nuance o- of it in examples like that when I went to Europe and could see the materials that they used and how it looks, especially how it plays against, like, the beautiful natural sky. And, like, that was the most surprising to me to have anything resonate (laughs) with 'cause I really didn't know if there was a, a palette that I could see myself using that had those tones.  

Sue Wadden (21:24): I totally agree. For me, that was my, that was my stretch and we'll talk about that in a second, but Sara, what's your, what's your take?  

Sara Malek Barney (21:31): Okay, so I totally agree about the frosted tints. At first, I was like, "What?" I don't know. And ... But then actually, what I did was look at it more granularly, like each individual color rather than the whole collection. And I was like, "Oh, wait, hold on. Yeah, I could use this. Yeah, I could use this." And in fact, even, you know, looking at, um, grape mist, which purple's scary for a lot of people, right, but I recently just sold a client on doing their entire primary bed bathroom in purple. So I was like, "Yeah, we could make a case for this."  

(22:02): And so I kind of liked that it was almost like a push or outta your comfort zone a little bit of like,  

(22:09): No, I'm gonna test you guys a little bit here with this color," and a little bit more forward thinking. I, too, was really drawn to the restorative darks. I love color drenching a space in a dark color. People think that's gonna make their space feel smaller when in actuality it doesn't at all. So I, I really love that. And, and kind of similarly to what Arianne sa... Arianne said, yeah, I just, I don't know, I loved all of them, but in, in fact, honestly like the frosted tints, like, scared me the most. But I would use them more probably than I would the sunbaked tints.  

Sue Wadden (22:42): Yes. Which is very specific.  

Sara Malek Barney (22:44): Right. And that's very, like ... There's ... I love, like, the lemon chiffon, I've used that already, but some of the more reds, not even so much like the oranges, but they're [inaudible 00:22:54] a little bit more like New Mexico. And so, yeah, it is a specific look, but I also think there's a case for them, whether it be on bookshelves, or on a ceiling, or kind of somewhere unexpected. I think that's where somebody who's not a designer might get a little hung up looking at these because you're thinking about 'em just in the four walls of a room. But there's so many ways you can use them and whether it be a ceiling, built-ins, kitchen cabinetry. I mean, it, the list goes on. So I'm excited.  

Sue Wadden (23:25): Even accents in upholstery or, you know, drapery or your throw pillows. Like, that's ... You know, sometimes we talk about like, you know, the, the 60, 30, 10 ratio, like how you're obviously bringing color into a space.  

(23:38): Um, I totally agree with you guys. The, the frosted tints was a struggle. And one of the reasons, not a struggle, but it's on the rise. So we have, you know, four palettes and we ... That's really kind of our norm. You know, the, the neutrals, that was a conversation on where, where neutrals are going, the deeps. That's kind of been ... We've been living with deep colors for a couple of seasons. Warms, we've, we've seen the warms on the rise, but the, this frosted tint is, is new, right? So we're showing in the European shows, the design shows, there's a lot of silver and almost, like, in all different sh... forms. So silver metallics, mercury grass, like this icier thread of color is starting to emerge.  

(24:19): And, you know, those tones don't always look good with warm hues. Like, that's not my favorite combination with beige or browns or nut browns. So how is this silver tone that's gonna be in product design gonna impact our interior? So starting to see cooler tones again was important. So that's where that frosted tints emerge. So it'll be fun to see where this goes, which leads kind of into a question I'm gonna ask in a minute. You know, where do you see color going in the next 12 to 18 months? That's kind of our cadence. We don't go too far out 'cause that's too far, but where do you guys think, where do you think color's gonna go? Sara, we'll, we'll start with you on this one.  

Sara Malek Barney (24:56): Well, piggybacking on what we were saying earlier, I think it's gonna go much further and wider, and the net will just be, uh, cast wider. I do see a case for ... Like, I brought up several times the yellows and the purples. I think you're gonna see it more than you would expect. I was never full in this ... I'm gonna get prosecuted for this, but I was never fully sold on the brown, brown trend. Like, it coming in full force, I thought everybody's gonna do brown, and in four years, we're gonna look at this and be like, "Ugh," you know. Clearly, this was done in 2025.  

(25:31): So I do think that that is maybe gonna wash away a little bit, but you are gonna see some more usage of fun colors in smaller spots, whether it be a small bathroom or, like, you're even saying in, in your textiles or even the frame of a, of a piece of furniture. So I think you are gonna see some of those colors emerge more and be less of a risk or less of, you know, sort of looking at it like it's, you're, you're going outta your comfort zone and, oh my god, can you believe they have a purple chair? Like, that won't be a weird conversation (laughs) anymore, which I think is what you're gonna see over the next year.  

Arianne Bellizaire (26:10): Yeah, I agree with her sentiment of just color going further in terms of the range of colors that we see. I think it might be a little bit more challenging to even pinpoint a specific, like, trend palette because people are gonna be a little bit more adventurous with their colors. I also agree with her that not only does yellow have a moment because I'm telling you every time I wear this color, we're like, "Girl, that is your color (laughs)." But similarly, when I wear any shade ...  

Sue Wadden (26:37): You look beautiful in all colors. Yes, you are a color girl.  

Arianne Bellizaire (26:40): I will send you your check. (laughs) I'll send you your check in the mail. Thank you for that.  

Sue Wadden (26:43): (laughs)  

Arianne Bellizaire (26:46): (laughs) But I also agree that any shades of purple are having a moment, from violet to lavender, lilac. And then the bold ... My favorite color to mix and create in (laughs) school, and I keep going back to this color theory class 'cause it's my favorite, was red violet. Any version of red violet just moved me. And I feel like that's gonna have a huge moment. Whether it's a raspberry or something that's an aubergine or anything in between, that color, I think, just has such a richness to it. And I think it plays either way. It plays to people who wanna be bold and adventurous. It also has roots in feeling like there's l- luxury and royalty and, like, stature with shades of that, that family.  

(27:29): So if there's any color families that have the rise, I'm definitely with Sara on this. Yellow shades, purple shades. And then as a whole colors in general all almost getting an opportunity to kind of be evaluated for their purpose.  

Sue Wadden (27:44): We totally agree. We're seeing that in our forecasting. We're starting to work on 2027 in the next couple weeks. And that's something that we talked about. It was really ... You know, coming out of COVID, we were all about natural colors. So colors of nature, biophilic principles, blues and greens. And then now in this second half of this decade, it's gonna be fun to watch the vibrancy and the saturation, like, step up a little bit.  

(28:07): And purple, I wanna go back to purple. I don't know if you guys saw our campaign. We have ... It's our third year, second year, but we're working on our third year of the loneliest color. So it's a campaign that celebrates the least tinted color. Like, the underappreciated, the overlooked. Because inevitably, when you have 1,700 colors, there are gonna be colors at the bottom that people don't gravitate towards. So our first year was a gold, kingdom gold, which was like a really rich, like really saturated, almost like harvesty gold. And this year was radiant lilac, so it was purple. And it was kind of a lilac version, a little muted, it's a historic color.  

(28:43): But what was so great is one of ... We launched this campaign, it was wonderful, very, you know, we got a lot of awareness and impressions and, and I (laughs) walked into a Sherwin store to pick up a can of paint and there was a little girl who was sitting in the, in the aisle or, you know, in front of the color wall and she said, "Mommy, I want the loneliest color, I want that purple." So like, you know, I think those color moments, while we love it because it's a campaign, it also is helpful to people when they see beautiful rich color out in the world, whether it's on TikTok or wherever they consume their media, seeing it is really important. So kudos to both of you for embracing color and, like, showing people how they can use it in a really beautiful, interesting way. So thank you for that.  

(29:27): So we're gonna talk a little bit about evolution. I, I think we kind of covered it, that saturation is coming, but are you seeing ... There's been a very strong thread of black and white through interiors, probably also with natural colors. Do you see that kind of, like, maintaining? Do you think black is gonna minimize what ... Where do you ... Do you use black a lot in your w... in your work? Just curious about that personally, really.  

Arianne Bellizaire (29:53): I think I have ... We have used black and white, black, white, and gold, black, white, neutral (laughs) in our palette for the past few years because people were requesting it because it's what they saw. And then I kind of got on this soapbox of, of almost feeling like I had to challenge people on, you know, what's appropriate for your region. Like, what's the reference for the black? (laughs) The purpose for the black. Where did it originate? Did it make sense in that region and does it make sense in your region?  

(30:27): There are a lot of houses here that, you know, some neighborhoods, especially if a developer goes in and, and co- comes up with a, a, you know, neighborhood of homes that all look cookie cutter and they all have the Instagram standard, you know, white brick, black (laughs), you know, accents. And then on the interior, it's very, very, you know, neutral colorless palettes. And I think that while that looks appealing online because it's magazine worthy and, you know, very curated, it's difficult to live in and it's very intimidating to think about how you wanna introduce your color and your personality in a space that's all white. It's even hard to live in that (laughs).  

(31:06): So we have you ... We have ... You know, we were, at one point, going with whatever you want, whatever you like, we love, and then trying to find our moments, like maybe the powder room, let's be (laughs) a little adventurous, like, you know, trying to, like, encourage them to, like, take, take baby steps. But now we kind of almost tell people when we're interviewing new clients, "This is the work we love to do, and it's bold and it's vibrant and it has color, and it's because co... that's the right color for you and your story. And if that resonates with you, we're the firm for you. But if you want us to do what you saw (laughs), that we might not be the firm for you. It's no shade. There is probably a firm for you, but we are not the firm for you 'cause we wanna use color, we wanna use textures, we wanna use fabrics."  

(31:46): And I think by shifting that language, there's a difference in what you'll see in our portfolio over the past few years of what we output. It's why people go, "I love how you use color." It's because I actually demanded (laughs) that the clients, you know, respect that that's a part of what we wanna bring to the story. And, you know, that's been our evolution.  

Sara Malek Barney (32:04): Yeah, it's so funny you say that 'cause we're one and the same in that way. I've had calls with prospective clients where they say they don't want any color, and I think, "Why did they even call us? Did they not see our portfolio?" There's not a single project on there that's all white and black. Like ... So I will say that, you know, one way to really help introduce color outside of, you know, the traditional paint and what, wherever else is introducing it in the textiles, but in a way that includes pattern. And I think that makes it a little more palatable for, for clients to, to take on color. If they see it in a stripe or they see it in a polka dot or whatever it is, a buffalo check, that gets them a little bit more excited. And then when they see that, like, tiny bit of color they're introducing, then they open up their mind a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more.  

(32:52): So I think that's one way that we've helped introduce color quite a bit. I ... You know, we do use a lot of white and black, definitely a lot of white, but I will say that for me to say green is a neutral, they don't even blink when I say it anymore. And it used to be the case to be like, "Green, no." And now it's like to me, green, blue, you know, like tan, those are all neutrals. Those are not ... Those are basically, like, black and white to me. So it's not like we're really introducing color (laughs) in that way. So I think there is more an openness for it, but it's, it's a matter of just continuing to push, continuing to push.  

(33:30): And I think what's interesting, actually, going back to talking about, like, the frosted tints and all that, and you talking about outside of COVID, you know, is all those, like, earthy tones and there's, there's a whole lot of studies about why we gravitated towards organic modern movement after COVID and the need for touch and human interaction in nature. But now, I, I, I'm hoping we don't overcorrect entirely and now become like all chrome and, and, and cool tones. However, I do think it's going to become a little bit more formal than it has been in the past five years. I do think we're gonna get a little bit more structured. It's gonna be a little bit less loose and open living and, and kind of all, like, greens and rattans, and all the things. You'll still have that, but I think it's not gonna be so over the top as it was right after our lockdown.  Sue Wadden (34:20): That idea of casual living, yes. I th... I, I totally agree. And we're seeing that in the sort of design trend world and, and forecast world that art deco traditional interiors, like that timeless aesthetic, which for 20-year-old, my daughter's 20, she's like, "This looks amazing. I've never seen this before." I'm like, "Well, I have," you know.  

Sara Malek Barney (34:39): (laughs)  

Sue Wadden (34:39): So, like, I think it's interesting and it will ... You know, that's, that's why we get up every day because things do change and our, it changes our perspective. I can remember, I don't know, maybe 2020, before COVID, we were talking about arches. So in European shows, everything was arched. We were seeing this shape, you know, everywhere, and furniture and architecture (laughs) and, you know, I just walked down the street and, like, our local coffee shop is being framed in with arches all over the place. So it took five years. It's probably, you know, kind of mainstream, maybe we're gonna move to something else. But these indications and these signals, I think one of you said the word signals, they do help inform where things are going.  

(35:18): And I think, you know, we speak this language every day and educating our clients that this is important to, you know, longevity of your project, but also looking fresh and new is ... Like, it's really critical. But I have to imagine that there's clients that are just like hard no. Like, is there (laughs) any color that has been like, "Nope, not doing it. I don't care how good you are, I'm not doing this color." Can you think of any?  

Sara Malek Barney (35:44): Oh, yeah, but it's like they sort of have told us that upfront. You know, it's like ... And it's because of their own, like, personal detest of a color. It's not because of the way we're trying to use it. They've already come to us with like, "I'm never gonna use purple. Don't even show it to me." I actually had a client several years ago who said she hated purple so much, and we still tried to show her purple, and she just about lost it on us and was like, "Did you not listen to a word I said? I said I hated purple." And I was like, "Oh my god, okay, okay, we're just starting to push a little. Calm down. It's fine." So you s... you do get those emotional reactions from time to time (laughs).  

Arianne Bellizaire (36:22): I agree with Sara. Uh, we ... You know, as you grow, (laughs) as you learn, you know, as a designer, you certainly decide where you wanna pick your battles. And so what we have learned ... I used to be that person who's like, "Ah, challenge accepted. You hate purple, I'm gonna show you a purple you love." (laughs) No longer, no longer am I willing to fight that fight. So now what I do, like Sara said, is that, you know, in the onboarding and interviewing when we are taking on a new project, I'm asking them for strong emotions, like visceral reactions. And even if you can't articulate it, I'm gonna have a session with you and we're gonna pull out colors. I'm gonna say, "Put a pile over here that you hate and that you love, and anything else in the middle, I feel like that's my chance to sell you."  

(37:05): If you don't have a strong emotional reaction to it, if I feel like it's the right one, I'm gonna show it to you in context, don't worry about it. But if it's like, "I know that when I see that color red, it makes my (laughs) blood boil," I am not here to try to (laughs), to like, "Oh, that's you and your therapist, not me." So I'm gonna let you have that, and then I'm gonna keep the loves, and I'm going to know that I have the margin to bring in anything that you didn't have a strong, like, can't touch emotion to if it's the right color for the story we're trying to tell.  

Sue Wadden (37:38): Absolutely. Well, that's gonna lead into my ... I have a little challenge, that's our next little segment here where, you know, what colors are tricky for you. For me, I live in a historic community, so, you know, there's great crown molding and beautiful trim, and so you can really get involved in color room to room. That's not a lot of open concepts here in my little town. So I think people embrace color. What is difficult for me is open concept living, bringing color into those spaces. So like someone's like, "I love red, I want it in my open concept living room [inaudible 00:38:10]."  

Sara Malek Barney (38:11): Oh my god. Well (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (38:13): How do you even do that?  

Sara Malek Barney (38:14): That's a look (laughs).  

Arianne Bellizaire (38:15): Yeah, that's a look (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (38:17): Can you guys think of, like, a tricky scenario and how you might overcome that with, like, a specific color? Like, think of a tricky color and, and what are the moments just to, like, just to show your design expertise. I want people to hear, you know, how much thinking we do when we're trying to solve these problems.  

Arianne Bellizaire (38:32): Well, just rest assured, we do (laughs) a lot of thinking, like a lot. Um, I can't think of a color family off the top of my head that is absolutely a challenge to sell when I show it in context, a- again, if it's not on that no-go list. But what I will say is sort of a challenge, it's not necessarily rooms 'cause that, you know, sight lines, there's a way to do that. It's the actual dynamic of the people living in the space. So if husband has a color he loves, wife doesn't love it so much, then it's figuring out the hierarchy of that space who, like, who you lean toward, how do you not offend one versus the other.  

(39:15): I don't think it's an actual shade. I think it's really trying to overthink the role that color is gonna play in the design and the story you're telling. And you wanna do everything you can to not make someone feel like they are not a part of that story. So if she doesn't like that color and he really loves that color, is it the right one to put on the wall? Probably not. Is there a reference point, though, on a pillow or something else? Maybe. And then what's the color they both love where they both feel seen and heard in that space? I think that's the kind of the way that I would phrase it. I ... 'Cause I can't think of one like that shade of purple that I, I can't. I think if it's the right one and it works for the family or for the client, it, it's easy to sell.  

Sara Malek Barney (39:59): Yeah, I, I have the most annoying answer to this in that, you know, when somebody asks you like, "What's your favorite color?", I give such a designer answer and I say, "I don't have one." And I truly don't. Like, I can find a case for just about any color in any aspect of life. And there's ones that I gravitate towards time and again, but I really don't have a favorite color. Where I do have a little bit of trickiness when it comes to design is what I call Crayola color. It's like those, like, very, like, s... primary, like the, you know, the Crayola green, Crayola orange, Crayola red, like that, those are hard for me to work in unless the entire space is gonna embrace it.  

(40:39): Like, if you want just a touch of Crayola red, that is going to be hard for me. I will, I will work really hard and I'll, I will find a way. I may not love it and I may not photograph it, but I could, I could surely try but it, but where I have had success using those palettes is, like I said, when the entire space embraces it, it's, it's in the tile, it's in the wallpaper, it's in the paint, it's in the every little accessory, it's, it's a, an explosion of, of that true rich color, then just trying to do, like, a tiny little bit of it.  

Sue Wadden (41:10): Yeah, that's, again, fair, right? Like, primary chromatic color, unless you have, like, a little frame for it to keep it in, it's, it's difficult. It's difficult. So as I think these questions are gonna come up more and more as our clients are getting excited about color, using color the right way, we'll probably take designers back to, like, their roots and color theory, which is fun, right? That's what makes this exciting.  

Sara Malek Barney (41:33): I will say I did just wrap a project and photographed it that it was unlike, color-wise, unlike anything I've ever, ever done. And it was all Crayola color. The entire thing was a jewel box, but it was all of it. And there was one point where we were designing the home, and there's one hallway, and I said, "It needs to be white." And the husband said to me, "There's no way I'm doing a white hallway. No way." And now the hallway is a bright purple. And I was against it, but he pushed me and it actually looks fantastic in the, in the showcase of all the colors coming together. It worked really, really well. So there's a time and a place, for sure. Sometimes we need to be pushed as designers, too.  

Sue Wadden (42:09): Well, and we learn every day, too. So, like, that, I think that's fair. That's a good assessment. Well, you guys have given me so much of your valuable time. I really appreciate it. So one more section, this is gonna be fun. It's a little rapid-fire crystal ball section. Two questions. So each of you tell us one color you think will be everywhere next year. And number two, one color you don't expect to be popular, but maybe you're hoping makes a comeback. Okay. And I'm gonna add one more. Three. And then one you want to actually see less of. So coming, what's gonna be everywhere next year, one that you wanna come back shade, and then one you wanna actually see less of. Whoever wants to start, go.  

Sara Malek Barney (42:45): Oh, I think it'll be like ... I don't know how to, to say it, but like a taupe, like a mauve taupe will be a, in a lot of places. It's, it's sort of a s... a clean way or an easy way of introducing "brown".  

Sue Wadden (42:58): Neutrals, or khaki, which is our color of the year, which we have not talked about yet, but that's where we're seeing it. We're seeing khaki coming.  

Arianne Bellizaire (43:05): That's right. That universal khaki is a good one.  

Sue Wadden (43:07): Yep. Okay. Arianne.  

Arianne Bellizaire (43:08): I think in my region, which is on the tail end of any trend curve, the color that I can see us jumping to the most is any shades of green, especially those deep greens, rich tones. I see that in the, the southeastern region absolutely having kind of a come up where some of the other areas of the country have already embraced it.  

Sue Wadden (43:28): Okay, one color you expect to be less popular, but hopes make a comeback, like color you wanna bring back.  

Sara Malek Barney (43:33): I actually think that green is gonna become less popular than it has been. I, I don't think people are gonna stop using it. I think it's still gonna be asked for, but there was a huge wave where it was like, "Hey, it doesn't have to be blue, it can also be green, and then it was all green, everything. So I do think there's gonna be a little bit of a less, less of a demand for green.  

Sue Wadden (43:54): But is there a color that you want, you want to come back? Like, you haven't seen it in a bit, but want back.  

Sara Malek Barney (44:00): Oh, gosh. I ... You know what, uh, this is going entirely against everything I just said, but I love jewel tones and the, uh, the idea of bringing in, like, a really rich, saturated color is super exciting to me. Not the Crayola color.  

Arianne Bellizaire (44:15): (laughs)  

Sara Malek Barney (44:16): The super rich like jewel ... Like, that, like, like Arianne said earlier, like that ro... like, royal feel, like that, there's a little more grittiness and depth to it. In the whole home that we are just wrapping up, there's a bar off the kitchen and we did it in Bohemian black, which is actually like a purple, but it's like you have to look closely to see the purple. And so I like that sort of ... I like to push in that direction.  

Sue Wadden (44:40): I love that, too. Okay, Arianne, what do you think? What do you want to make a comeback and then what do you wanna see less of?  

Arianne Bellizaire (44:47): I feel like for me, it's difficult to kind of put myself in these boxes because one of the things I love how I design is I am in a market that I said is on the tail end of a trend curve. So what we're doing and seeing here is so different from what I get to see when I explore the world. So I understand there's part of the world that sees color this way, and where I live, we see color this way. So (laughs) we still haven't even touched or embraced a lot of the beautiful tones and hues that others have already been done with.  

(45:19): This has never been a moment in the south. It totally could be a moment. Any of these beautiful yellows, citrines, chartreuse, like that whole spread has never ... It's an untapped market here and I feel like it would be so fun to just dive in and bring that here. I would love to see that have another moment, specifically in the south. Maybe they should have a first-time moment in the south (laughs).  

Sue Wadden (45:44): It should. And then what do you wanna see, what do you wanna see just move along, just go? Both of you. Sara, you said you had a good answer.  

Sara Malek Barney (45:53): I wouldn't say it's a good answer. I'm just tired, I'm just tired of gray. I'm just tired of gray. Like, I don't ... Like, it's so blah.  

Arianne Bellizaire (46:03): Here's what I would say, Sara. We could do so much better. We could do so much better. It's not that it's, it's bad (laughs), it's that we could do so much, but there's so much more that we could do. It, it's feels like a ... It feels like a cop out.  

Sue Wadden (46:17): It served its purpose when it was here. Yep. Yeah, right? Remember when it felt new when we were like, "Great, it's this palate cleanser," and ...  

Sara Malek Barney (46:24): Oh, it's not white, it's so different.  

Sue Wadden (46:27): Oh, yeah. Like, that was ... But that was a big arc, that was a decade of that gray and white situation. So it's ... I agree, it's nice to see however, but it's gonna start to come back like a little bit of silver. Not, not like, not like those mid-tone grays. It's gonna be a little different.  

Arianne Bellizaire (46:44): I feel like that's kind of full-circle moment for the frosted tints, maybe as an option to jump. But also, I think if you intentionally are bringing grays into new spaces, new homes, it feels noncommittal. Like, it ... You know, where before it was like, "Oh, that's the jump we're making," and we kind of-  

Sue Wadden (47:02): That's so chic, right? Yeah.  

Arianne Bellizaire (47:04): Right. It was so chic.  

Sara Malek Barney (47:05): Feels builder grade.  

Arianne Bellizaire (47:06): There you go. That's, that's why I say we could do better because it just feels like it's more about not offending (laughs) than it is making a, a s... taking a stand, color-wise, right?  

Sue Wadden (47:16): Agreed. Yes. Very, very well said by both of you guys. Well, this has been awesome. So just as we wrap up, uh, how can people find you? Give me your socials, or your website, or whatever, so people can, can look you up. Arianne, why don't you, you s... you start.  

Arianne Bellizaire (47:31): Yes, you can find me ... My website is ariannebellizaire.com. I know it's a lot of letters, but if you just try to spell it phonetically, you'll get there (laughs). And my Instagram is Arianne Bellizaire Interiors. So I would love to see you DM me with questions, but you have a lot of fun over there.  

Sara Malek Barney (47:47): You can find me everywhere @jointhebandd. That's our social handle everywhere with an extra D on the end. But once you start typing it in, like Arianne said, like you'll get there, jointhebandd. And same, we like to have a lot of fun. I like to, to share tips and tricks, and if you know me and if you follow me at all, you know that I love to share information both with designers and the general public. So if there's ever a question, I'm an open book and happy to answer it.  

Sue Wadden (48:11): Well, you guys have been awesome. Thank you so much for this conversation. Keep up the good work, keep up the color fight. Go get it. Go get it, everybody.  

Sara Malek Barney (48:20): Thank you.  

Arianne Bellizaire (48:20): (laughs) Thank you, Sue.  

Sue Wadden (48:21): You know, until next time, hopefully, we'll see you soon.  

Arianne Bellizaire (48:23): Thank you.  

Sara Malek Barney (48:24): Yes, thank you.  

Sue Wadden (48:29): One last thing before we say goodbye. Congratulations to Michelle Meeshie Fahmy, the Los Angeles based-interior designer behind Haus of Meeshie. She was named one of Apartment Therapy's design changemakers and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Architectural Digest, and more. And she's currently our November designer of the month. We absolutely love her work and hope you'll join us in celebrating her @swdesignpros on social media.  

(48:54): As always, thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a review and tell other design and color lovers about our show. See you next time on Colormixology.